{bbname}
返回列表 发新帖

请教双筒和单筒拉近感的比较问题

[复制链接]
发表于 2019-4-19 11:02  | 显示全部楼层 | 阅读模式
本人只有单筒镜,没有双筒镜作比较。之前进论坛学习了各位大神关于双筒和单筒成像和拉近感的论述,即:双筒比单筒在目视情况下,成像和拉近感有1.3倍的加成。
那么,想请教下老师们:目前,用双筒30倍是不是就能达到单筒40倍观看效果,顺理推算,双筒45倍观看能不能达到单筒60倍效果?

发表于 2019-4-19 11:48  | 显示全部楼层
档次规格一样的前提下,双筒的优势最主要就是舒适性,两眼看的舒适性明显要比一只眼睛看舒服,别的不会有明显差别,最简单的上就是你用双筒镜时一只眼睛看和两只眼睛看的差别。
论坛里有不少大神把两只一样单筒镜组合成双筒用,跟单筒比最大优势就是舒适性。光学不会有差别。45倍就是45倍,60倍就是60倍。
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2019-4-19 12:46  | 显示全部楼层
楼主这个问题其实很有意思,楼主的意思是拉进感,只是一种感觉而已,如果同是8倍,绝对拉近距离是一样的,但是单眼拉近的感觉(只是感觉)要比双眼的强,我觉得这个应该和人眼单眼折合135的焦距是50mm,双眼焦距是35mm是不是一个道理????请高手解答
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2019-4-19 13:16  | 显示全部楼层
这个好像是理论拉近感。实际用镜,个人感觉拉近感是内保罗》屋脊》外保罗。
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2019-4-19 13:44  来自手机  | 显示全部楼层
lipper 发表于 2019-4-19 13:16
这个好像是理论拉近感。实际用镜,个人感觉拉近感是内保罗》屋脊》外保罗。

如果说的是“感觉离自己的距离”的话,那应该反过来,保罗由于物镜基线大于人眼瞳距,会让大脑产生错觉,认为目标离的很近(只有离近了才会有那样的视差),但是目标尺寸还是按倍数算的,所以觉得目标缩小的。
屋脊基线与瞳距相同,目标距离跟倍数对应是准的,目标之间的空间距离压缩为1/倍数。
反保罗看到物体离得更远,显得更大些。
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2019-4-19 18:45  | 显示全部楼层
实际感受,天文望远镜,单目350倍和分光双目250倍,后者更容易看到细节。
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2019-4-19 19:11  | 显示全部楼层
双眼观察有大脑加成,程度因人而异,但绝大多数人双眼看图像会感觉更大,更容易辨认细节。
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2019-4-19 21:40  | 显示全部楼层
谢谢各位老师解惑,让我明白了许多
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2019-4-20 12:34  | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 rocky 于 2019-4-20 12:36 编辑
赵北旅 发表于 2019-4-19 19:11
双眼观察有大脑加成,程度因人而异,但绝大多数人双眼看图像会感觉更大,更容易辨认细节。

跟双核处理器类似道理。双核主频未必比单核主频高,但处理的效率更高。
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2020-1-26 01:25  | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 quantedge 于 2020-1-26 01:26 编辑

可以看看这篇文章,及其后面的链接
Thoughts, theories and experiences about binoscopes
http://www.binoscopes.de/gedanken.html


Men do have two eyes and visual seeing is optimized for using both eyes
Everyone can easily make some experiments using a binocular with just one or both eyes to see the huge difference.

First there is the subjective magnification, it is bigger with two eyes than with one eye
Also you can see more faint details with two eyes, which are not visible with just one eye
While looking at the stars you will see more stars with two eyes than with just one, the ability of collecting light is increased by binocular viewing.
Usually one is talking of a factor 1.4242 or sqrt2 for the gain of magnification and the ability of light collection. Generally this factor is right for the increased magnification and for the increased ability to collect light for pinpoint objechts like stars.
............

Why a binoscope?
http://arieotte-binoscopes.nl/Why%20a%20Binoscope.htm

回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表于 2020-1-26 01:39  | 显示全部楼层

Why a binoscope?



Experienced observers claim that observing with a binoscope is superior to observing with a traditional 'mono-telescope  that has a comparably large, but only one big mirror.
For instance, the noted astronomy writer and columnist Phil Harrington inevitably ends his columns with "And remember that two eyes are better than one".And he is not alone. I paraphrase some remarks made by observers who are lyrical about observing with a binoscope:
...watching the globular cluster almost made me tumble from the ladder...
...it feels as if I approached the doorstep of the cluster with a spaceship...
Well, this sounds like a revolution in the visual observing of deepsky objects, right?But what  facts support these claims? What happens when signals are received separately by two eyes and processed by the brains? And 'how much better'  is it to observe with two eyes instead of one? It turns out that there are multiple complex processes that play a role.


1) Improved signal to noise ratio
The most important factor is the better signal to noise ratio that leads to the perception of a darker sky background. What does this mean? A stimulus that is not originating from an astronomical object (for instance 'light noise'  from light pollution) could be interpreted by one eye as a bona fide signal. But the chance that such random noise signals hit two eyes simultaneously and reach the brains is very small indeed. In other words, when looking with two eyes, the brains do have to suppress much less background noise created by light pollution. And this automatically translates itself into a darker sky background, even in my light-polluted hometown. This phenomenon is in particular relevant for the observation of very faint galaxy halo's or arms.Within these faint, extended objects many more details become visible and the contrast within the objects is greatly enhanced.
Related to this reduction of the 'signal to noise ratio', binoscopes also provide much 'calmer' views. Smooth is another word that has been used to describe the views in a binoscope.When looking with one eye, the image is distorted by phenomena such as floaters, which results in a restless, scintillating view. True, after a long time at the one eyepiece this view also becomes calmer. This can easily be experienced when you change to the other eye after, for instance, an hour. One will then again have a restless view in the 'fresh' eye. Now, when looking through a binoscope this effect is striking. When closing either the left or right eye one is confronted with these (even different) scintillating images. When opening both eyes this instantaneously disappears and a smooth, silk-like image emerges. Mel Bartels considers this the greatest 'wow' factor of a binoscope and I agree. The effect is overwhelming when looking at faint halo's of galaxies etc. Each time I experience this I'm pleased to be looking through a binoscope.


2) Stereopsis
Stereopsis is the ability see depth. Because of the different positions of the eyes, an object is viewed by each eye from a slightly different angle (parallax). This creates a spatial 3D effect. How closer the object is, the larger the angle and how greater the 3D effect. But unfortunately, astronomical objects are so distant that there is no such thing as parallax there and consequently no 'real'  stereopsis. But, there is a related phenomenon called chromatic stereopsis or chromostereopsis. This is caused by the slightly different breaking in the eye lens of for instance red versus blue light. As a consequence red and blue light focus in a slightly different place on the retina. This effect is different for each eye and it therefore appears as if red stars stand a bit closer  than blue stars. When looking through a binoscope, chromostereopsis hereby creates an illusion of depth, although this is completely artificial.


3) Enlarged field of view
Mel Bartels often stresses that you can achieve larger fields of view with a binoscope in comparison with a mono-telescope.Indeed, looking through a binoscope, this is a beautiful effect that is immediately obvious.But why is that? If you take the example of my 2 x 13 inch binoscope, with f/5.0 mirrors,the use of two 10 mm Televue Ethosses delivers a 165 x magnification and a 0.61 degree true field.Suppose this binoscope has an approximate equivalent of a 18 inch mono-telescope, also being f/5.0.Now the 10 mm Ethos would deliver a 225 x magnification and a 0.45 degree true field, which is only half of the true field you see with the binoscope.To achieve a 165 x magnification and a 0.61 degree true field, the 18" needs to be f/3.7. And since this creates massive coma, a coma-reducing Paracorr will be needed.As a consequence, the mirror needs to be even f/3.2 for these same magnification and true field(with thanks to the Televue Eyepiece Calculator!).Now consider what will be the costs of such a steep mirror!
There is another aspect here that is rarely addressed. In humans, the horizontal binocular visual field is 120 degrees.But there is an additional 45 degrees monocular field on each side of the binocular field.So, there is a total of a 90 degrees field that is non-binocular, but that is seen by looking with two eyes.By looking with one eye only, this is just a mere 45 degrees of the one eye.And even though you cannot encompass the entire 120 plus 90 degrees at one glance,you will observe it peripherally and it adds to the feeling of being present in the picture.Of course, the choice of eyepieces is important here: with two 50 degree apparent field of view eyepieces, you will just see the field stops. But the effects are very obvious when two Ethos eyepieces with a 100 degree apparent field of view are used.


4) Comfort of two eyes
There is also the 'ordinary'  effect of the increased comfort by looking with two eyes instead of with one eye, and another squeezed eye.Sustained and concentrated viewing at faint details with two eyes, without the strain of looking with one eye only, is more pleasant and more relaxing.


5) Binocular summation
Binocular summation is the process by which the brain combines the information that they get through incoming signals in the left and right eye. The summation means that the ability to detect faint objects is enhanced. Put differently, the threshold value for the detection of faint objects is lower with two eyes than with one eye. Statistically there is an advantage for the detection of a weak signal when two detectors are used instead of one detector.This advantage can be deduced to a factor sqrt2, or 1.41, called the binocular summation factor.
In addition, there is also a phenomenon called binocular facilitation. This takes place when the visual cortex receives signals from two eyes simultaneously. In that case the activity of the brain is enhanced more than the sum of both brain activities that are provoked by each one eye separately. Theoretically these phenomena result in the better visual detection of faint objects and should also lead to the better detection of details in such objects.
I place 'binocular summation' as beneficial factor last in this section, and indeed it is probably also the least important factor.The gain in contrast, chemostereopsis, the wider fields of views and the comfort factors probably outweighthe relatively small gain in aperture. Still the binocular summation factor dominates the discussion on the advantagesof a binoscope versus a large mono-telescope. I devote an extensive note to this subject(see Binocular Summation Factor).





Binoscopes versus binoviewers
One major reason why binoscopes are so impopular is the availability of a number of very high quality binoviewers.Why bother to make a complex binoscope when you can just stick in a binoviewer in an existing, large mirror mono-Dobsonian telescope?After all, this also provides a binocular view of deepsky objects and is probably also a far cheaper option than a binoscope.But is observing with a binoviewer the same  as observing with  a binoscope. Let's go over the same points as above.
ad 1)  The light signal that comes through a binoviewer is principally one signal, it is just split into two halves. Therefore, the improved signal to noise ratio does not apply to a binoviewer. So the higher level of contrast, obtained with a binoscope, can possibly not be achieved with a binoviewer.Binoviewer enthousiasts argue though that this is maybe true, but that the brains still manages to filter out some noise, which results in a higher contrast than when one eye is used only.
ad 2) I don't know whether chromostereopsis applies for a binoviewer, but maybe it does.
ad 3) Instead of an enlarged field of view, the views with a binoviewer are actuallyreduced due to the use of a Barlow in the binoviewer. This is considered a negative point of binoviewers, even by binoviewer enthousiasts.
ad 4) A binoviewer also provides the comfort of looking with two eyes. This is probably one of the nicest aspect of a binoviewer.
ad 5) The single light signal is split in two, and the effective aperture of the large mono-telescope is lowered by the use of a binoviewer.As said above, this is, however, not a major drawback of using a binoviewer.
Probably due to a smaller increase in the level of contrast, observers who have compared binoviewers with a binoscope confirm that views with a binoscope are much more 'lifely' than with a binoviewer. Care should be take though. These observers mainly talk about deepsky objects such as galaxies.Most often binoviewers are used on low contrast but bright objects such as planets and the moon.Different brightness/ contrast objects may benefit differentially from binoviewer or binoscope.
In conclusion, there is enough to say in favour of binocular vision versus monocular vision, as I try to argue in this section.


回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

发表回复

您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 注 册

本版积分规则

关于我们
关于我们
友情链接
联系我们
帮助中心
网友中心
购买须知
支付方式
服务支持
资源下载
售后服务
定制流程
关注我们
官方微博
官方空间
官方微信
快速回复 返回顶部 返回列表